Looking north at the Pennsylvania Avenue facade
Looking northwest at the 8th and D corner.
Looking south from above and behind the north residential building.
Looking to the southwest
Looking north down 7th Street
Filed under Uncategorized
Tagged as Hine 3-D Model
We are appalled by the size of the proposed Hines Project building and how very much out of keeping it is with the Eastern Market area. I’ve noticed that any time developers are challenged about the advisability of their plans they respond with “You can’t stop progress.” When money is involved I’m sure the definition of progress changes.
looks even more hulking in 3D . . . you wouldn’t like me when I’m angry
These 3-D renderings make me wonder what all the fuss is about. It doesn’t look too big or hulking at all. Sure, it’s taller than the buildings around it, but it’s not like it’s towering above them. It’s not even immediately adjacent to any small buildings (the street separates them).
I think it’s time for people to just stop whining about this project and get on with it.
hulking? I think not.
The massing is overdone on the S portion to the north of C. Look at the shadow studies to get a full sense of the impact. Its highest facade abutts the street on PA and 7th & 8th Street, which gives it an impression of even greater mass than it actually has overall. It even dwarfs the Stanton Eastbanc development across 7th St, which should be a stronger point of reference.
I don’t live next to it, and I’m not that concerned about the overall size. It’s just not a very impressive rendering.
sorry — south portion AND to the north of C St.
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I live right next to it and it is appallingly too large. Eric K and David C, to write such tone-deaf comments, you clearly either don’t live near it or you work for the developers.
Overall, I’m appalled at how the city and the developers have run rough shod over the neighborhood and our concerns. And now it comes out that the developers are going to be allowed to privatize C St and have complete control over it?!? So concerts can be performed there and I’ll have no say over that even though it will dramatically affect my quality of life. Outrageous.
@8th St Neighbor I do live in the neighborhood and certainly do not work for developers. The only thing I’m tone deaf to is the constant crying by a few NIMBYs about the height of every project that is proposed. We live in a major world city and this spot is right across the street from a Metro station and dozens of restaurants and shops. It should be a dense project because anything less is an irresponsible use of preciously scarce, transit accessible land. It’s hardly even taller than the existing Hine School, for crying out loud.
The selfishness of a few neighbors who think that their preferences override everyone else in the neighborhood (and city for that matter) never ceases to amaze me. They got their prime spot, now they don’t want anyone else to.
The only concession I will make to the 8th St Neighbor’s of the world is that I’m not a fan of privatizing C street, or any other street.
Your need to disparage those who disagree with you speaks for itself. If you ever wonder why emmcablog doesn’t edit comments like yours out, it’s because the group believes that churlish and inane comments exert more persuasive force than any editorial policy ever could.
Go drink your kool-aid. You know, the “smart growth” one? We’ll just be here, creating a vibrant community that values civil discourse, the way we always have been.
I think anyone who’s read more than a couple of posts on this blog can have no illusions as to the editorial policy of its writers and primary commenters.
Additionally, Kathleen, I don’t believe my comment is any less civil than yours; I insulted your beliefs with my crying comment and you insulted mine with your kool-aid comment.
I literally live at the corner of 7th and C St and I have no issues with the heights of these buildings. Hines is just as big as is the new construction on the West side of 7th St. I’d much rather have a useful building with new neighbors and commerce than an empty parking lot and abandoned building with weeds.
It completely dominates and overshadows Eastern Market — after this is built, people will say “what market?” because nobody will be able to find it from the metro stop. Also, I am pretty sure that this will kill the flea market, and becuase of the loss of weekend foot traffic, the loss of business will stress the food vendors in Eastern Market.
Who is going to occupy this place, office workers? What will it bring to street life? I think it will detract from the vibrancy of the street that we enjoy today. This is the real soul of “smart growth,” and this thing is deeply flawed.
(And just to be assure people that I am not a NIMBY, I am very anxious to get something built — vacant Hine has been a scar for too long. But I am willing to wait for something better than this.)
How will it ‘overshadow’ the market? It won’t be any more obtrusive to a line of sight from the Metro as the current Hine building is. If anything, the retail along 7th will encourage people to walk in that direction.
I also don’t buy your argument that this will somehow detract from vibrancy. You know what detracts from vibrancy? A vacant school building.
Honestly, if you’re asking what new retail, new office, and new residential will bring to street life (not to mention repairing the void that the current Hine building creates), I’m not sure what would convince you otherwise.
@Alex B: There are lots of office building downtown that do zero for street life, and I fear this will be one of them. This proposal will basically duplicate the Stanton/Eastblank building on 7th and Pennsyvania, which is not and never will be destination.
The vibrancy that will get killed is the flea market, which *is* a destination. The flea market contributes 10x more street life than anything else, and this will not be replaced. The vacant school actually adds to the vibrancy because it enables the flea market. Its loss will hurt all of the retail in the neighborhood.
Totally agree with Alex. This development has the opportunity to actually heighten the Market and make something more permanent. Currently vendors are left in this limbo in what looks like a rag-tag set-up each weekend.
Consistent shops and a usable C st even provides opportunity for weekday vendors during the Spring/Summer.
There will always be a “better” option, but time has run out and it is time for the neighborhood to embrace this concept.
Also – I’m posting under this name as the moderators continue to delete my comments on previous posts…
What I like the very best about the new C Street is the way it frames a view of Eastern Market for those traveling east and west along the new C Street. Oh, wait. With that awful “North Building” all along the north side of C Street, there will be *no* place along C Street from which Eastern Market is visible. Never mind.
What? I can see Eastern Market now if I walk up 7th street on the west side of the street. How will a new building on C be any different?
Likewise, since when is ‘framing views’ of Eastern Market a top priority? The Market is built to the lot lines like just about every other structure in Capitol Hill – it’s not meant to occupy a terminal vista the way the Capitol dome is. I guess I don’t see the relevance of this particular line of objection.
Better than a vacant parking lot and empty lot that people confuse as an ice skating rink…
Are you a plant from the developer, or else how are you going to profit from this? Your posts are far too positive to be convincing.
@Goldfish, I’m a 28 year old Hill resident going on 5 years now. I have rented in the PennMark building (7th and C SE)for the last 2+ years. I speak highly of this project for multiple reasons, including:
1)I want to buy on Capitol Hill and this new development makes this more possible
2) I am tired of my tax paying dollars to support a vacant building with running lights and other up-keep
3) From everything I have read the Developer has done everything in their power to address the neighborhood concerns, but no matter what they don’t seem to be enough.
The status quo no longer works and it is time for change on Capitol Hill. I post under multiple names b/c the moderators of this website have disagreed with many of my sentiments and block previous user names.
Again, if you want to convince people, you need to temper your enthusiam. You need to address the criticisms that many (far older and far longer term) residents have offered. It appears that you either don’t see, or ignore, the faults of this project.
@goldfish – I don’t think my tenure and/or age has anything to do with my ability to effectively evaluate the proposed project. I would actually say that you, and others like you, need to temper your criticism of the project and begin to embrace many of the benefits.
“He who is impatient is not in love” — Italien proverb.
…and I am in love witht he flea market. This project will decimate it. What do you say about that?
“Progress always involves risk; you can’t steal second base and keep your foot on first”
Again, you prove my point by using language such as “decimate”; meaning to kill destroy.
Yes the flea market will be different, but using such extreme language like that is nothing more than a red herring to avoid a real discussion.
I greatly enjoy the flea market, I even work occasionally for one of the vendors. However, I am in love with the neighborhood and what it could become and greatly wish to become a home owning resident. What do you say about that?
I use the term decimate deliberately, with full knowledge of all that it implies. My opposition is rooted in that: This project will kill the flea market, destroy it, obliterate it, wipe it out, annihilate it, …
Construction will take away the Hines parking lot for some two years. During this time there will be street and sidewalk closings adjacent to the site, further limiting the amount of space available for the flea market. This will drive most of the vendors away, and when the construction is over, they will be faced with (1) much smaller available space, around 1/3 of that previously; (2) far more difficult transportation into and out of the space; and (3) because of (1), higher rents. Most vendors will have move on to better places and not come back. Those that do come back will wither with time due to the loss of business, because the diminished size of the flea market will make it less attractive for visitors (those that still remember it after the long construction). Mark my words, 2-3 years after construction, the flea market will be so small that Stanton/Eastblank will discontinue it because of the lack of interest.
@goldfish – I imagine many people did not think the market would return after the fire in 2007, and now look at it.
From all of your arguments, as best I can tell, you prefer to maintain an empty parking and an abandoned building over:
1) potentially new Capitol Hill residents and tax dollars
2) new permanent and consistent commerce and tax dollars
I understand why long term/older residents are afraid of change – I full admit the market will be different.
However, to assume that this project will kill it, even with plans to maintain the market is just ignorant.
Passion such as yours should indicate that the flea market could survive a 2-3 construction plan, smaller space, for the promise of an additionally 300-500 new customers.
@Fake Handle: Confidnce that Eastern Market would return came about when the mayor visited the very day of the fire to announce that temporary digs would be put up and the building restored. Nobody is saying anything like that about the flea market. In fact, that is one of the major shortcomings of this project, that there is no one or organization to advocate for, and protect the interest of, the flea market.
If you bothered to look, you would see that I do not favor keeping Hines as it is. But I do think that is preferrable to this project as it stands today.
Residents of the neighborhood are not the root of the success of the flea market. I live nearby, and almost never buy anything there; most of my neighbors are attracted to the food in the south hall and ignore the flea market. We like the market because it attracts tourists and vis
itors from the suburbs that also wander into the south market and buy food. The business these visitors add are primary reason for the success of the whole endeavor. Adding more residents will add more business for the food vendors in the South Market, but as soon as the novelty wears off, they will not buy much from at flea market.
As the size of the flea market gets smaller, you have to wonder: what is the critical size needed to continue to attract people to drive in and fight for parking? Consider that H Street has a small, mostly farmers market; when was the last time you went there to buy something? The flea market space in this project will be roughly the same size as it is on H Street. I think the evidence is there that this will kill the market.
@goldfish you assume way too much, and I think we all know what that ends up doing.
I think it is short sighted to assume that the residents of the neighborhood do not shop at the market. Additionally, I know when I have visitors from out of town they always shop at their – add 300-400 new residents with visitors and that is a lot of additional money for the market.
We cannot change the current situation at Hines without construction, no matter what the project is. The argument does not matter.
I do not believe the parallels between the H St Market and Easter Market are the same, including:
1) Proximity to the metro
2) Name recognition
For these two reasons alone the size of the market is less important.
@Fake Handle, obviously the size and number of vendors has everything to do with the success of the flea market. It will take just one underwhelming vist to convice everyone, include those new residents and their out-of-town visitors, that this is something not worth coming back to. “Name recognition” will transform from “a cool place to while away an afternoon” to “has been ruin by going condo — what a shame”.
Re: how the locals buy at the flea market: how much do you spend there? I insist that local mostly buy food; the flea market is supported by visitors.
@goldfish – I don’t think the size is as important as you seem to think. Especially since the farmers market already has a set space. Think about it – in any other market venue the farmers have to fight for space with the flea market vendors. Not so in Eastern Market, thus giving the flea market vendors the entire space – albeit a little smaller.
Personally, as an up and coming resident in the neighborhood I spend somewhere between $200-$400 a year on flea market vendors.
More importantly though, I have anywhere between 10-20 different people visit me throughout the year. Each of these guests spend somewhere between $25-$50 a trip, that’s probably an average of $400 a year. If you times my own ~$200 and my guests ~$400 ($600) by the number of potential new residents ~300 you get a total of $180,000 a year for flea market vendors. I admit this is back of the napkin calculations, but it relies upon just as many assumptions as your position.
This is one of the many factors with space that must be considered, one should not trump the other – and I would contend this would be much more important than limited space.
Also, you are putting the flea market over the greater good of the entire neighborhood. In my own opinion, Eastern Market is more than just a flea market on the weekends.
@Fake Handle: The “greater good of the entire neighborhood” is utterly tied to the success of the flea market; it is the crucial, dominating economic engine just like a GM plant is to a small town. I repeat myself, but here goes anyway: The added tourist foot traffic the flea market brings spills over to all of the other businesses, both in the South Market and elsewhere in the neighborhood. These people add crucial support for many of the shops we enjoy, and without it some of them will fail. When the flea market is crippled, all of these tourist will go elsewhere. By comparison, what else is there to draw people to SE?
@goldfish – Honestly, the Neighborhood is greater than a flea market that only exists for 2 days a week, 2/3 of the year – at best. Even if the flea market is as important as you say it is, you’ve yet to prove to me that limiting the space of the market will be as devastating as you claim.
The size of the flea market is the least important thing, as I’ve stated before the proximity to the metro and name recognition and the permanent establishment of the farmers market are all much more important.
More importantly, you ignore my argument on how the project would actually bring more tourists to the area, again making the space – even if smaller- that much more attractive to the flea market vendors.
On top of all that, the development offers the opportunity for permanent and consistent businesses to establish in Eastern Market – adding even more to the neighborhood on top of the flea market. These business may very well answer your question of what could draw additionally people to SE, again, in addition to the flea market.
I want the flea market just as much as I want this new development – these things are not mutually exclusive. However, from opposition such as yourself I have heard no positive suggestions on how to move this project forward – only roadblock after roadblock.
@Fake Handle: to address your point that “the project would actually bring more tourists to the area”: simply no, it won’t. Tourists are not going to make a trip to see a new condo building (especially when there so much else to tour in DC). True it will add few residents, but the number is pretty small compared to how many people live in any given block on CH. What attracts tourists is the interesting, vibrant, craft market. But that will be wiped away.
I believe Goldfish works for/in/with the flea mkt. He simply can’t be worried about the flea mkt this much without $$ reasons. I agree with him to a point. but like fakehandle said: 2 days a week for 2/3 of the year should not be the lead discussion point. As a neighbor, I think we missed the boat when we didn’t argue about design. Instead we argued about height. It should reflect more like Est Mkt…and less like a building built in the mid 2000s. The flea mkt will be fine-better actually.
Whoa now, whoa_now. It is usually a mistake to ascribe motivations for people, especially the tired old canard “You must be working for them.” You have no idea what motivates Goldfish in the comments made. The very first time the neighbors got together with CM Wells to discuss this, the importance of maintaining the flea market was at the top of the agenda, and it has been since. The many hundreds who have stated that as a priority do not all work for the flea market.
As for “us neighbors” missing the boat and arguing about the wrong thing, I don’t know who you are, but I have attended an awful lot of meetings so let’s be fair. You may have meant to say, “*You* neighbors who would like to improve the proposal before the city signs off on it….” because I have not heard your complaint raised among those volunteering time to get this right. So I guess you were too busy to attend that meeting–those dozens of meetings, actually.
Finally, this *is* the efficient process the city sets out for developments like this–work with the ANC and neighborhood groups, get HPRB approval, get Zoning Commission approval, with citizen involvement encouraged each step of the way, and then your developer can start razing and building. Nothing the volunteers working on this said or did to date delayed this project by even one second. It is marching along through the steps the developer and the city understood since the contract was signed.
The only reason this was delayed by one full year, while the vacant school building molders, is because the *developer* requested a one year delay, to get their financing in better order. What neighbors have to say might annoy you, but they have not caused any delay whatsoever. Ask the developer if you don’t believe me.
If you want to get involved with others in trying to improve the project, or get the discussion the boat you think has been missed, please attend the many well-publicized meetings where that work is going on. Barking on a website’s comments page does not move anything forward.
@Whoa now, I do not work for/in/with the flea market in any way whatsoever. In fact, I find it rather troublesome when I leave for a errand on a bright Saturday morning and cannot find parking anywhere near my house so I can drop of the things I bought.
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